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The List 5233 TGB

To All,

I hope that you are all having a great weekend. Here are some bits and pieces.



Thanks to Micro


In regard to “evidence” that North Vietnam was told by the U.S. government about specific strikes in advance on North Vietnam, Bear and I disagree. And I suppose we’ve agreed to disagree.

In his most recent post that you shared on The List, once again, he uses a phrase from a completely debunked account. Specifically, he says, “…minimizing North Vietnamese civilian casualties” which is stated in only one place: GEN Piotrowski’s memoir that Barrett Tillman referred to. In that memoir, GEN Pete Piotrowski, USAF, says the following:

“Nearly twenty years later, I saw former Secretary of State Dean Rusk being interviewed by Peter Arnett on a CBS documentary called ‘The Ten Thousand Day War.’ Mr Arnett asked, ‘It has been rumored that the United States provided the North Vietnamese government the names of the targets that would be bombed the following day. Is there any truth to that allegation?’

“To my astonishment and absolute disgust, the former Secretary responded, ‘Yes. We didn’t want to harm the North Vietnamese people, so we passed the targets to the Swiss embassy in Washington with instructions to pass them to the NVN government through their embassy in Hanoi.”

First, Arnett worked for the Canadian Broadcasting Company (CBC), not CBS; however, although there was a multi-part documentary called “The Ten Thousand Day War,” there is zero evidence of any such exchange between Arnett and Rusk (or anyone else). Many, many people have investigated this claim, and there is absolutely no foundation for such a belief.

Not withstanding my undying respect for Bear and his beliefs, as well as Barrett Tillman, a vague claim (a translation of a memory) by a junior gunner in North Vietnam is hardly evidence of such a major crime. I find it far easier to believe that the propaganda machine in North Vietnam told the people that they knew more than they did to restrain any anti-government feelings. It stands to reason that by this time, if there were any truth to this nefarious rumor, it would have been trumpeted from the rooftops by Vietnamese, as well as all the anti-war activists that are still alive (you know, the ones that weren’t exposed to Agent Orange or lead bullets). It simply doesn’t stand to reason that a statement of the variety of “as I remember,” as Barrett Tillman puts it, which is demonstrably false, should be held as evidence of such a heinous accusation (that the U.S. government intentionally sacrificed the lives of U.S. aircrews to save North Vietnamese citizens).

I fear that GEN Piotrowski’s faulty memory has inflamed hatred in the same way that today’s fake news has muddied the waters of reason in our political processes. As with today’s “news”, such ready acceptance of easily debunked and very thin “evidence” is indicative of far more suspicion and distrust than historical truth. We tend to pass along our “beliefs” far more quickly when something seems to reinforce what we want to believe than if we are not so sure or if it counters our preferred version. That is not to say anyone wants to believe that our government was responsible for killing our friends but that we know the incompetence and misguided ambitions of Johnson and McNamara did result in unnecessary casualties and suffering, and anything that not only fits that narrative but adds a criminal charge to it is somehow satisfying and must be shared with others.

The truth is that there is zero evidence that Dean Rusk, McNamara, Johnson, or anyone else told the North Vietnamese in advance of specific targets and specific plans (where and when) so that they could reposition defenses or “send people home from work” so that civilians wouldn’t be killed. Zero evidence. Every belief of such a thing originates solely with the faulty memory of GEN Piotrowski, as stated in his book, and reports of that lit a wildfire that just won’t die.

If anyone knows better and can back up such a claim, most certainly the readers of The List have a right to know. However, continuing to believe something that is demonstrably false not only continues to cast a shadow on the casualties of the Vietnam War but sows doubt regarding the value that our leaders place on the lives of our military men and women. It is not healthy, and it is inaccurate.





What We Don't Know About the Coronavirus Is What Scares Us

Victor Davis Hanson


Mar 05, 2020 12:01 AM

Source: Cheng Min/Xinhua via AP

The recent spread of the coronavirus is causing a global panic. Our shared terror arises not so much from the death toll of the new flu-like disease -- more than 3,000 people have died worldwide -- but from what we don't know about it.

Experts at least agree that the virus originated in China. But Beijing's authoritarian government hid information about its origins, spread and severity for weeks.

Such duplicity only fanned the fears of a global plague -- a hysteria not seen since the groundless fears of a YK2 global computer meltdown in the year 2000, or the political feeding frenzy during the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

Wild speculation followed that the coronavirus was a virulent or mutated superbug. Had it arisen naturally or escaped from a nearby military lab? Did it originate from a sick lab animal? A conspiracy theory arose that it was a manufactured virus that had escaped from scientists' botched efforts to create either a vaccine or a biological weapon.

Is the outbreak an indication that China's scientists are well behind their Western peers, at least in the areas of virology and bacteriology? Or is the problem that Chinese culture still features outdated traditions such as open-air "wet markets"? Unfounded rumors spread that the virus may have originated in one of these markets, where exotic mammals such as bats and pangolins are still sold for human consumption. For all China's gleaming high-speed-rail lines and new airports, hundreds of millions of Chinese still live in places with suspect food safety and waste disposal -- the historic incubators of epidemics.

The method of the contagion has been perplexing to experts. Why is the mortality rate for infected patients in Iran roughly double that of patients in countries such as South Korea, Italy and Japan? Why have almost no children under 10 died from the infection?

Are governments unable (or unwilling) to count the infected, given the similarities in symptoms between the coronavirus and various colds and flus? Does such uncertainty suggest that we are undercounting the number of people sickened or killed by coronavirus?

Or are we instead overestimating its dangers? Thousands of patients may have already recovered from mild cases -- and perhaps never knew they were sick in the first place.

Evidence suggests that only about 2 percent of patients will die after infection. As in the case of other viral illness, the unfortunate victims are mostly elderly people with existing illnesses. Does that pattern suggest the coronavirus may be more like annual influenza outbreaks -- deadly to thousands but hardly the stuff to shut down a global economy?

The common theme of history's great plagues -- Athens in 430 B.C., Constantinople in 541 and the Black Plague of 1347-- was that preindustrial conditions of filth and ignorance helped spread what were usually bacterial diseases transmitted by lice, fleas and rodents.

Real plagues can certainly change history. A stricken Athens afterwards lacked the power to defeat Sparta in the Peloponnesian War. The Byzantine emperor Justinian would never finish his half-completed dreams of a new reunited Rome. The Black Plague helped usher in the end of the Middle Ages.

Great literature -- from Thucydides, Procopius, Boccaccio and Camus -- often chronicled the human suffering, and especially the hysteria, that follows from the breakdown of civilized norms.

History also reminds us that nature remains unforgiving. We may live in the age of the Internet, smartphones and jet travel, but viruses are indifferent to so-called human progress.

Modern life squeezes millions into cities as never before. Jet travel, with its crowded planes and airports, can spread diseases from continent to continent in hours.

Globalization is a two-edged sword. It may enrich billions of people, but the leveling effects of instant communication and travel can spread disease at a speed undreamed of in the past.

The dissemination of sophisticated Western science to non-Western societies that lack advanced research centers may be increasingly suicidal. Borders are now considered passe in the age of globalization. But their enforcement reminds us that not all nations are alike. All sovereign peoples should have the right to take measures for their own safety well beyond the purview of the transnational elites.

Finally, is it wise or safe to allow hundreds of thousands of homeless to live crowded among filth, vermin and squalor on the sidewalks of America's major cities?

The coronavirus threat and the unfounded hysteria that has accompanied it will pass.

But the specter of a pandemic offers a timely warning to remember that we are not necessarily any more immune from volatile nature -- and humankind's paranoid response to it -- than were the ancients.


More sanity, thanks to THE Bear -

Dutch... The deluge of coronavirus media coverage has overwhelmed me... but this note from New Yawk is too good to trash... good news, I’d say... Bear

PS... first case in Utah tonight... a cruise ship customer came home and turned himself into a local doc...

Begin forwarded message:

From: David
Date: March 6, 2020 at 9:08:40 PM
Subject: Mayo....The coronavirus

From a friend...

Here are notes a friend of mine sent after a meeting with the CEO of the Mayo Clinic. Looks to be a good synopsis.

Gianrico Farrugia, M.D., president and chief executive officer of Mayo Clinic, spoke this morning at the Naples Beach Hotel and Golf Club. It's the 56th season the group has met meeting offering an interesting program of speakers. The Mayo Clinic is one of the largest not‐for‐profit academic health systems in the U.S., with $14 billion in annual revenues and 65,000 employees. With a focus on caring for patients with serious, complex illnesses, Mayo Clinic operates in five states and cares for more than one million people a year, from all 50 states and nearly 140 countries. Mayo Clinic is ranked #1 in the nation by U.S. News and World Report.

The Clinic has four areas of focus, 1) patient care; 2) professional training - last year graduating 300 physicians, 2,300 healthcare professionals, and completing numerous continuing education training; 3) clinical research including over 2,000 patient-based clinical trials currently underway for a wide variety of maladies; 4) medical product and systems R&D, last year spawning 30 startups.

During the Q&A after Dr. Farrugia's talk, several questions about the coronavirus were asked. Below are his comments based on my notes.

China has been very helpful and very transparent to the rest of the world partially on methods of containment and countermeasures.

The contagion rate was initially 2.1, meaning each infected person infects 2.1 others.

China's aggressive containment policy, their only tool of control at that point, has been successful. They've bent the contagion curve from 2.1 to under 1, meaning the infection rate is going down, fewer people are being infected each day.

The virus is passed on by human contact, not picked up on surfaces.

The best protection at this point is to avoid shaking hands or kissing. These are very simple counter means, but practical strategies for containment. Avoid sneezing or coughing people; cough into your elbow.

The initial safety standard was 9 feet of separation between people; that's now revised to 6 feet.

Airplanes have very sophisticated filtering systems that are effective in reducing the spread of the virus. Of course, the filtering system isn't useful if your seatmate sneezes in your face.

This virus does not seem to mutate quickly, meaning a vaccine is possible.

The U.S. public health system is built to handle just such a problem. It's built to identify, investigates, develop solutions, and broadly implement remedies. It has systems methodologies in place.

Mayo alone has numerous lines of vaccine research simultaneously underway . Of course, many other institutions are working on the problem too. It's a matter of days before a vaccine will be identified.

Once the vaccine is proven, production will begin immediately as the tools for ramp can be quickly put in place.

Test kits are being moved to production quickly; they're prepared for a huge ramp of testing kits

This is not a pandemic; it's not as deadly as SARS.

This is not the first such virus, and it won't be the last.

Humans are a very resilient species.

These comments are from my notes, which capture the tone and the tenor of Dr. Farrugia's talk as well as the details as best I can recall. We're still in discovery, so some of the facts can either change or become nuanced, while other facts are yet to be discovered. If you find any of this in error, please let me know. Of course, the internet is filled with stories. Be careful of people trying to use this situation for their own personal or economic purpose.



Here's the behind-the-scenes trailer for 'The Outpost' - Task & Purpose

WATCH the trailer:

The fighting resulted in two Medals of Honor, as well as 27 Purple Hearts, 37 Army Commendation Medals and 18 Bronze Stars for valor, and nine Silver Stars, according to

How 'The Outpost' tells the true story of a handful of American soldiers heroically fighting back hundreds of Taliban

JAMES CLARK March 6, 2020

On Oct. 3, 2009, a handful of American soldiers at Combat Outpost Keating, a remote and highly exposed base in eastern Afghanistan, repelled a massive attack from more than 300 Taliban fighters.

In the wake of what would later be called the Battle of Kamdesh, the outpost still stood, but the desperate defense came at a terrible price: eight Americans were killed, and 27 were wounded.

As many as 150 enemy fighters were killed.

Overnight, Bravo Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment became one of the most decorated units of the war in Afghanistan. The fighting resulted in two Medals of Honor, as well as 27 Purple Hearts, 37 Army Commendation Medals and 18 Bronze Stars for valor, and nine Silver Stars, according to

The Outpost, an upcoming film based on CNN anchor Jake Tapper’s best-selling book of the same name, aims to tell that story.

"It should be a day that every American knows," The Outpost's director, Rod Lurie, says in a new behind-the-scenes trailer. "It should be part of American history."

"The story of The Outpost is important because it actually happened. American service members were placed in the worst tactical position possible," Ty Carter, who along with Clint Romesha received the Medal of Honor for their actions that day, says in the promo.

The new trailer from Millennium Media lays out how the film intends to tell the story of one of the most desperate battles of America's recent wars: First, by having veterans on and off the set.

"I needed veterans in this film," Lurie says in the clip. "I needed veterans to play the soldiers."

"It was like walking into a memory, you know?" Henry Hughes, an Army veteran and co-producer of The Outpost said in the trailer.

Based on the trailer it certainly appears to be a military-heavy film, with Carter, Hughes, and numerous other vets on hand as producers, advisers, and even in front of the camera playing themselves.

The Outpost also has a few high-profile actors, with Orlando Bloom as 1st Lt Benjamin Keating, and Scott Eastwood as Romesha, and Caleb Landry Jones as Carter.

For the decisive battle, many of the scenes will be shot in single takes as a way to maintain the frenetic pacing.

"I decided to do something risky in this film, and that was that I was going to try to shoot as many scenes as possible — especially in the battle — in one shot," Lurie said in the trailer.

If you've seen Sam Mendes' recent WWI drama, 1917, you're familiar with the effect this can have when done right: You never lose sight of the action, and those caught in the middle of it.

The Outpost will have its world premiere this March at this year's South by Southwest Film Festival in Austin, Texas.


thanks to Doctor Rich

yes, Smoke at 4:55, followed by Jerry Norris - Dutch

Thanks to Mike …

Some of you will recognize yourselves, and others ‘way back when’, in this video…

Rattler … isn’t that Boomer at 4:55?



Made by Grumman to promote the new F-14 Tomcat, this film takes place at Miramar, California and Fighter Town USA.

At mark 0:33, Fighter Town USA is seen with various front line Naval aircraft including F-4 Phantoms. Here, pilots are now using lessons from the war in S.E. Asia in developing F-14 combat maneuvering syllabus, using the variable wing at different speed ranges, and getting use to the plane's sophisticated electronic packages. The multiple weapon systems include Phoenix missiles which can be launched simultaneously at targets more than 15 miles away. A two man crew divides responsibilities that range from visual tracking and navigation to kill assessment in a tough ECM environment. At mark 3:57, we have all the crews learning about the F-14 and how to use it to their advantage. This is a full time job for them. Every working day a routine of debriefings and flying, flying and debriefings. Beginnings before dawn and also at nights. Soon enough its time to fight, at mark 4:18, we see pilots preparing for fight against Top Gun fighters. Each plane has its special abilities. At mark 5:08, F-15 versus T-38 Talon, a lesson in defensive maneuvering. The T-38 Is one of the tightest turning aircraft in the inventory. We have the instructor teaching the pilots on how to defend and maneuver. He sets up the rule of engagement and recognize when they should make their move and engage. He teaches them how to counter when locked on the weapon system. From the class room to the real world and back to the classroom. Here at mark 7:57, we have the instructor who flew the T-38 conducting the debriefing. Briefing them on his turnings and maneuverings on the air. At mark 9:10, we also have the F-14 flying crew preparing against the A-4 Skyhawk, another good turning low wing craft. The tag team instructor also instruct on the defense. Again the F-14 is on the defensive, the A-4 rolling into a good gun position. The instructor at mark 9:40 instructs on maneuvering and how he will counter attacks on the engagement to make the kill. At mark 10:35, both crews return to the class for debriefing. This is to remind the F-14 pilots of the capabilities of their aircraft and that it will respond after been pushed beyond the limits of other aircrafts and to instill confidence in them. The instructor gave them instructions on their aircraft and its maneuvering capabilities. At mark 12:40, we have the F-4 Phantom opposing the F-14. Both are high thrust away fighters. Unlike the F-14 however, the Phantom has divided high speed to be effective and thus is vulnerable to the tight turning Tomcat. Both will use radar to find one another then engage. The F-14 is the aggressive. At mark 13:22, the instructor gives the crew some ideas. Having heard it from the class room of course is a lot easier from been there. We have both aircrafts on the air maneuvering and trying to engage attacks. At mark 14:20, we see them briefing each other in the class about their engagement and maneuvering after the air flight. At mark 15:17, pilots have been impressed about the F-14 after putting its capabilities to test and using it to their advantage. The different pilots tried the F-14 to check its amazing capabilities. With the confidence the pilots have, they can now translate F-14 real capabilities into real performance. The F-14 can also stand on its tail. The aircraft performance, flexibility and wide varieties of weapons can be adapted to any foreseeable threat and take the fight to the enemy and to win. We encourage viewers to add comments and, especially, to provide additional information about our videos by adding a comment! See something interesting? Tell people what it is and what they can see by writing something for example like: "01:00:12:00 -- President Roosevelt is seen meeting with Winston Churchill at the Quebec Conference." This film is part of the Periscope Film LLC archive, one of the largest historic military, transportation, and aviation stock footage collections in the USA. Entirely film backed, this material is available for licensing in 24p HD and 2k. For more information visit

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